After further thought I would definitely prefer 5 oclock services.  If it changed to 11 i think i will only commit myself going only when im serving.  Other days i wouldnt say i wouldnt go but visiting other churches at night woul seem a whole lot attractive. 

Again to reemphasise my pint (i mean point) is that we are just assuming that EDJ kids will go to the service if its 11.  What happens if we change is and they are reluctant to come????  Have we got some concrete eveidence that they will come?

And having kids in the near future (if God allows) probably wont stop me from attending services at 5.  But then again it might change when theres a little "Elmo" running around  (awwww =~)~ yes for those who dont know my little girl will be called Ellie so its El-mo for short awwww but if its a boy then i guess hes gonna have a hard life being called "Ellie" for a bloke so it better be a girl!!!) ok ive lost my train of thoughts.  ill write more later.

Eddie

PS I hope this doesnt get published into like the annual report or something?!?!

I would actually like it at 11am. This way, I can just drive my parents to church in the morning and go to their service with them, then just continue on with the english service. It's not like I wake up early anyway, so I don't waste any time. It saves an extra trip to church in the afternoon.

I think the problem with evenings is that people need dinner. And parents find it annoying to drive when it's around dinner time. At 5, most people wouldn't have cooked yet, so that's ok. But at 6 something, that's dinner time or at least cooking has started. Combined with the irregularity of when the service ends, it would be quite annoying I imagine.

Daytime would give us more opportunity for longer fellowship with each other, without the need to rush home or feel sleepy.

It just feels better to have things following each other without big breaks in the middle.

Parking could be a problem though, but there's tons of space in the streets closeby. Just like a 5minute walk maximum. We can't get too lazy. So to me, that's not a problem.

I know that some people have work during that time. I am not sure of what their financial status is, but I guess that some might need to change their shifts. But I doubt we can really find any change that will make everyone happy. Not everyone is happy about 501 being at 5.

Why not have a vote?

For the proposed time changes, I think the main reason would be to make it easier for those attending EDJ to be able to attend worship.

For those of you who are not familiar with the situation, presently there are no EDJ members who attend 501. This effectively means they only have a fellowship component in their church life which is far from ideal. Main obstacles include unwillingness on behalf of EDJ members who think worship is boring, Sunday night timeslot seen by parents as study/rest-before-school-on-Monday and because no-one else from EDJ goes its harder to persuade them to come. 

During the last school holiday, there was a joint venture between Chinese and English congregation to run 2 holiday worship services in English for the EDJ members. It was very good for them to be able to worship God in a Sunday service together (and some of their parents came as well!). And we will be continuing this in the next term break.

However, a more permanent solution needs to be found. There were suggestions of having a Morning Youth Service especially for the EDJ members but due to the resources required that idea has been shelved for now.

So if we move the service to 11am, it will be more convenient for these EDJ members.

However, as you've probably read in other people's comments, the 11am timeslot is not ideal for uni students and workers because it's smack bang in the middle of the day. So I guess it comes down to which ministry does our church want to focus on? Are we willing to displace the young adult/workers age group for the teens? Would the teens then think they are attending worship because they have to wait for their parents (the convenience factor)?

If the argument is that this 11am timeslot will set us up for a more family-oreinted target, then I would have to say looking at the current demographics of our congregation, kids will come 5 to 10 years down the track. In this time, our resource pool would hopefully allow us to have both the 11am and 501......

So what for the current EDJ members? Do we leave them high and dry, with only holiday worships? I have been encouraging them to come to 501 and hope that as they get a little older, they will take an interest in attending worship and also have the freedom to do so. It has been really encouraging to see all you Crossfire people who come to 501 now! =)

Also, one of the advantages of us moving to 11am was been better communication between the English and Chinese congregation. But I think it shouldn't be taken for granted that just because we are at the same venue that it would miraculously bridge the language and cultural barrier between the two. It would help that we see each other more often (when we're joustling for car spaces!) but relationships need time and a channel to build through.

Now, let's talk about EDJ.

The move from 9:15am to 9am shouldn't make much of a difference. However, if EDJ was to relocate to Carlingford Road, space would be an issue. There isn't the basketball court or soccer field for us to play on, and the church hall would be considerably smaller than the Mini-O we currently use which allows us to play games and run activities indoors. I can foresee noise complaints also!

I think the joint venture thing doesn't have to happen only when we move the worship to 11am. It can happen right now if those people in the Chinese congregation put their hand up and let me know they want to help!!

As for EDJ being replaced by Teens Sunday School - that shouldn't be a problem. As long as the teaching is relevant and interesting, challenging and life-changing for the kids then whatever title we give it shouldn't matter. And again there should be the emphasis on relationship building between teacher and student and teaching through living it out!

I think we also need to consider as the EDJ kids grow up, fellowship time may be moved to a Friday night. Then their Sunday will be broken up instead of flowing neatly from 9am. They may have more flexibility with transport arrangements and other academic/social/sporting commitments. Then 11am would not be an ideal timeslot.........

From reading all your comments, I think I tend to agree with Peter.

I don't know much about how EDJ and Sunday school are run so I don't know how that affects them.

However as to the English service, I agree with Peter that having it in the morning would mean that more younger kids come because their parents will let them. This will facilitate them moving into the English congregation. I don't know many EDJ ppl at the English service currently... are there any?

Having it at 11am will also give us time to have fellowship afterwards. A whole day! fancy that...

The early timeslot is certainly not to my tastes... I wouldn't be awake at 11am on Sundays usually. But that is a little inconvenience that I'm sure we can put up with for the benefits it offers.

Paul's concerns about car parking and noise and potential disruptions that could occur as a result of both services being at the same time on the same site is quite valid. Parking around Carlingford Rd won't be easy to find if there are two services there.

Finally, I think all the thoughts raised here are quite helpful. Pity that a small proportion of the congregation will get to hear it. Some may also be put off by the longish thread. Will there be opportunity for an open forum to discuss all these issues where all (or most of) the English congregation will be present? If it is really that important a decision I think that may be helpful.

Q1. I can attend but reluctantly

Q2. I prefer 501.

Q3. Disadvantages: parking is a serious problem. Not enough parking space and need to find an off-street parking which may affect our neighbors. This already cause some problems with our neighbors in the past. It’s no longer an attract to new-comer if they can’t find a close-by parking spot. Those who attend morning service need to leave soon after the service to free up the parking space as well as the church. It maybe a bit rush for them since it will shorten their time of chatting with others after worship. People will have a tendency to be late for service so that they may find a parking spot at church after morning service people leave. Two services running concurrently may create some unforeseen problems – noise, voice control when both service not finishing at the same time. If 501 worship time needed to be changed, it would be better to wait and have enough time for both Chinese services running in the same church to be settled before 501 jump in. Oh, one more thing, is there any consultation on both morning service and afternoon service about this proposed change? It affects the whole congregation.

Q4. The advantages and disadvantages listed above is not convincing. The time change is not a big deal (only 15 min earlier) but the venue change probably is a problem for running some activities for Edj kids and it restrict the kid inside a room, otherwise, it will affect the morning services. Not enough information to provide comment on joint venture arrangements.

Q5. EDJ is different from Teens Sunday School. EDJ is a fellowship style and Teens Sunday School is a lecture style. It’s hard to justify which one should replace which. If resources are allowed, it should have both.

Q6. If EDJ move back to church, Epping West school will most likely taken by other parties. This is a no-turning back decision because there are no close-by venue that we can hire any  more. So please consider it before making a rush decision.

Most of you know how I feel about the importance of ministry so I encourage you guys to comment though having anonymous comments would be good too if there are people who want to remain anonymous. Take your time to read through my long, long comments and challenge or support them as you see fit. This is the future of the church that we are molding.

501

Q1. I support the move to the morning and would definitely attend.

Q2. I prefer 11am, despite having to wake up reasonably early, it allows for other activities e.g. youth groups/meetings, to be held at night at church without getting home too late for the following Monday morning.

Q3. The change to 11 am will disrupt the majority of current 501 goers but I do not think we should let this fact hinder us. I encourage all of you to think more long term in regards to the Edj and Crossfire groups and even the current ‘English speakers’ in Sunday school. We need better unity between both side of the church and especially between parents and their children. On a more personal level, I don’t want to see us having to face the same problems that say, a church like CCC Milsons is having due to the wide division between the Chinese and English side.

I believe that by changing the time to 11, we can encourage more of the younger kids to come. This is important since they are the future and the next generation of the church. In 10 years time, they will be the ones leading service and doing the PA and overheads etc etc. Since the current service is at 5pm, most parents aren’t willing to let their kids stay out that late and the kids themselves aren’t really willing to come or even go out of their way to attend service. This fact plus the general negative attitude that the kids seem to have towards ‘traditional service’ accounts for the reason why we don’t have any of the Edj kids or English speaking Sunday schoolers at 501.

An advantage of establishing a church in the morning is that eventually, I think the 501 service is going to turn into the ‘family’ service. As all of the members grow up and get married and start following Peter Costello’s commands to procreate (make that President Costello! :P), we’ll need a ‘English’ Sunday School to accommodate for these children. As 501 turns into a more family congregation, we really need a place to accommodate for them since most families would prefer the mornings due to a variety of reasons (e.g. afternoon sports, don’t want their kids to stay up too late etc etc). In the end, I feel that we’re going to have to establish a family church and that this change in the morning is one way that we can ‘ease’ the transition from the current 501 church to the family one that I see us having 10 years later.

The only real disadvantage I believe comes from our own inhibitions. I think many of us will be unwilling to change our lifestyles to support this new move. The disadvantages mentioned and not mentioned such as less parking, ‘early’ mornings + late Saturday nights and people who work on Sundays (though why someone is working on the Sabbath…..) only come from our own personal attitudes. There is no ‘real’ stumbling block aside from the ones that we put ourselves.

To summarize. I support the move to the morning because:

1)      It will encourage the younger English Ministry members to come to 501

2)      It fits in well with a long term plan since an earlier English Sunday Service is inevitable

3)      It frees up Sunday afternoon and nights for youth groups and other activities.

4)      The only disadvantage I see is our own laziness and unwillingness to get up early. Granted that there are always exceptions, I don’t believe a Sunday morning will be less attractive to new comers and I also don’t believe that less parking and waking up early are valid reasons for not going to worship (though this is just my personal belief, as valid and as correct though it may be :P)

EDJ

Q4. The change in time (15 minutes earlier) doesn’t make much of a difference thought the disadvantages listed are quite puzzling. The kids aren’t actually attending the service with their parents and almost all of them get dropped off and/or picked up by their parents, how or why are they going to feel embarrassed about attending church with their parents when they already do that?!? What are we going to suggest? They change church?

Q5. Having EDJ replaced by a Sunday school isn’t necessarily an bad idea, Sunday School has more resources, more experiences in dealing with the kids. I would suggest that if Edj was replaced by a Sunday school, that it retain it’s current structure. So instead of having separate Sunday school classes, you have a fellowship setting run by older brothers and sisters but not by someone’s mum. This way, the English ministry is more linked with the Chinese one and there isn’t any miscommunication (as if there is a problem the Sunday School principal would be able to manage it instead of a mix and mess of communication that we normally have when the Chinese side and the English side meet).

I think Sunday school should be taught by the Chinese side at the younger levels but by the English side at the older levels. When the kids are in yr 5-6 having an English ministry member there would provide an easier transition into Edj and later into Crossfire.

I also think it’s a feasible idea since when Edj has their parents meeting, we have ‘official’ people present at that meeting who know nothing about Edj or the structure or the kids themselves. By placing it under Sunday School, the parents know who to talk to or ask if they need to know something and the people that they ask will be capable of answering those questions.

By joining Edj with the Sunday school, all the previous history, issues and concerns of all the children can be met and deal with.

In short, what I propose is that Edj is ‘shared’ by the Chinese and English ministry. It should be officially under Sunday School jurisdiction but run by English Ministry members.

Q6. If these ideas were put into place, I think the biggest problem would not come from the kids themselves but come from the leaders or the people running Edj. This is not an open criticism of anybody but I foresee situations where there could be conflicts in the Edj leaders and the Sunday School teachers group. By joining the two groups, the Chinese ministry will have a strong influence on Edj which might not be appreciated by the Edj leaders and vice versa.

Anyway, whether you are going to post or comment on this issue, it is an important one and I urge everyone to keep this issue, the leaders and the Deacon Board in their prayers.

Hi,

As a PA guy, I would like to ask whether there are sufficient resources to run two services concurrently given the equipment we currently have? I'm thinking that the data projector alone is an issue, let alone a PA system. To hold two services concurrently would mean that we'll need two fairly decent (ie. non-cheap) PA setups.

My assumption is that the Chinese service will get the main hall, because they have a lot more people. So they'll need a decent setup. On the other hand 5:01 (or 11:01) will need a decent setup too because of the style of worship that we do (involving lots of instruments/singers and perhaps sometimes multimedia stuff - such as the displaying of movies and interactive presentations).

This might pose a large barrier for the move to the new time slot (both in terms of $$ and logistics). There's also an issue of volume. Will the two services be disturbing to each other? This might be the case if both services are running a "music team" style of worship (which is foreseeable for the to-be 11am chinese service). However, I'm not an expert on acoustics, so I'll leave this comment here at this point.

Bill